Guardians & Blue Jays
Submitted by: pezzicle
Guardians
| Name | Age | Level | P1 | P2 | Availability | Years | AFV | Salary | Surplus | Low | Median | High |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Randal Grichuk | 29 | Majors | OF | Medium | 3 | 19.6 | 26.4 | -6.8 | -8.2 | -6.8 | -5.4 | |
| Alejandro Kirk | Minors | C | 24.1 | 19.3 | 24.1 | 28.9 | ||||||
| Austin Martin | Minors | OF | 2B | 50.3 | 40.2 | 50.3 | 60.4 | |||||
| Simeon Woods Richardson | Minors | RHP | 19.8 | 14.8 | 19.8 | 24.8 |
Total Value:
87.4
Blue Jays
| Name | Age | Level | P1 | P2 | Availability | Years | AFV | Salary | Surplus | Low | Median | High |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Austin Hedges | 28 | Majors | C | Medium | 2 | 3 | 2.8 | 0.2 | 0.1 | 0.2 | 0.3 | |
| Jose Ramirez | 28 | Majors | 3B | 2B | Medium | 3 | 118.5 | 31.8 | 86.7 | 69.4 | 86.7 | 104.1 |
Total Value:
86.9
Comments
12The salaries may wash out, but the talent does not. Cleveland would quickly say no to this. Cleveland prefers defensive catchers so I don't see the Indians playing Kirk at catcher. This is a rebuilding trade and the Indians have not expressed any plans on rebuilding. Yes, they retool each year, like the Rays, but this would take them out for at least 2 seasons.
My thoughts are that either proposal would make 2021 the lost year and 2022 the transition year with 2023 being the first year of a possible return to contention. You can't expect all of the young kids be ready to explode on the scene at the start of 2022. I can see the team being better the second half of 2022, but they would then be already buried for that season. It is still my thought that this would waste Bieber's sure time on the Indians. I know you don't agree, but you asked for our thoughts so I provided mine.
Grichuk and Ramirez salaries cancel out basically, so that's a wash. Hedges goes to TOR because Kirk is coming back for CLE as a back up and in case they don't want to pay Perez 7M next year. Roster spots are fine. Austin Martin is a stud and can be moved to OF, which CLE needs.
Nobody wants an overweight C with a muffin top........nobody. Cleveland has plenty of its own IF that they can move to the OF so Martin isn't needed. Cleveland would have no interest in Grichuk's salary even if Ramirez's "cancels it out". SWR would be a nice get, but he's the only thing of value coming back in this trade and it's not nearly enough for one of the best players in baseball signed to the most valuable contract.
Sub out Moreno then, and add another prospect. That's fine. Second point you make though is quite silly. Martin is the best hitting prospect in the minor leagues basically and has the defensive chops to play CF. TOR is already thinking of moving him out there. Who does CLE have that even remotely fits in CF who can hit? Your choices are Miller, Arias, Tucker, Gabriel Rodriguez, Bracho, Rocchio, Freeman, Jones. GRod, Bracho, and Jones can all be immediately eliminated from the conversation cause they 100% can't play CF. Tucker is ETA 2025 or something, so he doesn't come into the conversation. Arias has a 35 hit tool. Miller is seen as more of a swiss army knife UTIL guy who can play CF in a pinch but is better utilized in a moving roll. You're left with Rocchio and Freeman. I guess you could add Gimenez to that list as well if you want. That isn't "a lot", especially since Jones could get moved off 3B at any moment, and you need a 2B soon which will probably be Freeman. And one of those 3 guys has to play SS too. An INF of Jones/Naylor, Freeman, Gimenez, Rocchio with Martin in CF in like 2023 is an amazing lineup. CLE could easily take on Grichuk with Ramirez going out, and would 100% take him on if it meant getting Martin. SWR is not the only thing of value coming back, Martin is legit a top tier prospect with a 70 hit tool. He is a 3-4 WAR regular in CF. Martin is literally the only prospect that I would want CLE to trade Ramirez for
@Pezz... there's a lot to like about this proposed deal.. After you get by the ad nauseum pronouncements of never trading Jose Ramirez w/ three years on a team friendly contract.. etc etc.. This is a hypothetical trade presentation site.. and should be treated as such.. Then looking at the actual deal.. a few points.. -Grichuk is a salary dump for a team that can't afford a salary dump.. In short.. keeping Grichuk in the deal kills it.. -Kirk, so far, is showing he's a flash in the pan offensively.. and always a poor defensive backstop. As you've suggested, swapping him out for a more defensive minded catcher, Moreno.. would be fine.. -The listing of Jones and Rocchio (& some other guys?) as not playing CF is correct.. they don't play CF.. and they're not included in the deal.. What's the point? -The Indians will look for talent first.. and roster flexibility second including creating a roster spot for one of their coveted prospects. This is something the team giving up the best player in the deal should be afforded.. A deal can be struck that will allow both teams to prepare for the inevitability of the 2021 and 2022 season.. Here's what is suggest Jays get Ramirez, Hedges Plesac Zimmer and Mercado = 127.4 Indians get Martin, Groshans, Moreno and SWR = 128.9 Thoughts: Groshans is obviously a huge target for people evaluating the Jays system.. Adding him gives the Indians a real 3B (Groshans), a real CF (Martin), as solid backstop (Moreno) and Plesac's replacement in SWR.. 2021 is a transition year and should be treated that way by the CLEFO.. if only The Jays get the best player in the deal... while, at the same time, solving their SP dilemma in one fell swoop. The Jays get three serviceable players who offer flaws and skills in Zimmer, Mercado & Hedges.. The open roster spot(s) are a bonus.. Thoughts?..
Bracho is not eliminated from possibly playing CF anymore than Martin is. In fact, Martin's throwing issues could make it hard to find him a position other than 2B. That is why he has just about come full circle after being tried at SS then 3B then CF. I don't know who you have talked to, but Miller is much more than a "swiss army knife". He's a solid defender at 2B and a capable defender at 3B. He can play SS if needed, but that is certainly not his best position. He has enough speed and athleticism to make the transition to CF or at least attempt to. Regardless he is the type of hitter than Martin hopes he can become. Martin is far from "the best hitting prospect in the minor leagues". What do you even base that off of anyway? His 4 minor league AB? Our own Tyler Freeman is a better hitter than Martin with a much more proven track record. Martin is a damn fine prospect, but he is not needed in Cleveland. Grichuck would never be a target of Cleveland's unless Toronto were to eat all of his salary and even then I'm not confident they would take him. Look, I understand your desire to acquire Ramirez. He's one of the best players in the league signed to one of the most valuable contracts. I'm not even suggesting that the Blue Jays can't acquire him, but it's gonna cost a helluva lot more than you presented here. I've stated this numerous times, if you want Ramirez then you better be prepared to overpay and the package starts with Groshans, SWR, Moreno, and Kloffenstien. The problem Toronto faces should Ramirez become available is Atlanta. I think they could present a more attractive package than Toronto.
hmm... Bracho's ultimate destination... has yet to be determined.. but he has the presence and skills to be very good wherever he ends up... If that's CF.. so be it.. I just don't know where that is at this point.. Toronto prospects vs. Atlanta prospects.. we'll disagree on this.. and there's history as it relates to position players acquired from the Braves... Thoughts?.
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Sure, they could certainly go with Moreno instead as he is looked at as a better catcher, Kirk fit better because of value. And I wouldn't really say this is an "at least 2 seasons" move. Martin is starting in AA, and could easily be up by mid next year. He has the best hit tool in the minor league aside from Franco. The subtraction is Ramirez to Jones, which certainly hurts this year, but they have Miller, Freeman, and Arias coming up next year (or this year). I don't think this does anything negative to any year besides this year. In addition to that, they aren't trading Ramirez if they don't want to take a step back for 2021 and maybe half of 2022. No trade of him makes sense if they decide not to do that. This is a trade that makes sense if they DO decide to do that.
2021 and 2022 would be done in my opinion. Yes, you would be adding players as 2022 would continue, but you can't count on that team being competitive in 2022. I can see being better by the end of 2022, but the start of 2022 would be as bad as 2021 would be. Grichuk would be a waste to be included as he would be gone, by the time the Indians would return to competitiveness. It would also be a waste of Reyes, Bieber etc. Ok, how do we compete in compete in 2022? I just don't see it.
Grichuk is there specifically to increase the return balance the money in the deal. Biggio is also moving to the OF in this situatoin. Reyes and Bieber are under contract until 2025, so they aren't being wasted.
I don't care or have any interest in balancing the money if I am the Indians. Grichuk would be a useless piece in that situation. Let the Blue Jays worry about the money. So in 2023 when we are finally may be competitive again, Bieber will have 2 years left. What has happened to our other pitchers starting at 2 years? I am not willing to sell out on 2021. The AL Central is wide open in my opinion as the White Sox have lost both Jimenez and Robert for most or all of the season. I think the future of the Indians is very bright, but I don't see how you can count on all of them being ready and competitive for at least the first half of 2022 without a couple of anchors to lean on. Reyes can't do it by himself.