Guardians & Blue Jays
Submitted by: WGW
Guardians
| Name | Age | Level | P1 | P2 | Availability | Years | AFV | Salary | Surplus | Low | Median | High |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Jordan Groshans | Minors | SS | 24.5 | 19.6 | 24.5 | 29.4 | ||||||
| Gunnar Hoglund | Minors | RHP | 9.3 | 7.4 | 9.3 | 11.2 | ||||||
| Alejandro Kirk | 22 | Majors | C | DH | Low | 5 | 22.3 | 6.5 | 15.8 | 12.7 | 15.8 | 19 |
| Orelvis Martinez | Minors | SS | 25 | 20 | 25 | 30 |
Total Value:
74.6
Blue Jays
| Name | Age | Level | P1 | P2 | Availability | Years | AFV | Salary | Surplus | Low | Median | High |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Jose Ramirez | 28 | Majors | 3B | 2B | Medium | 2 | 97.7 | 24 | 73.7 | 58.9 | 73.7 | 88.4 |
Total Value:
73.7
Comments
9No.......again.
Again, nothing here that helps Cleveland.
Appreciate both of your input but...please explain, my thinking is that Cleveland needs cost controlled future assets. I welcome suggestions of areas of need for Cleveland rather than just a straight no if possible.
Sorry WGW, haven't been on the computer to respond. Kirk is not a good defensive C. He looks like a softball player and he moves like one as well. If he sheds 40lbs and becomes more mobile and better defensively then we can talk about him, but not until then. Sorry to be short in my initial response, but every Blue Jay fan seems to want to pawn all of Kirk, Biggio, and Gurriel Jr. off onto Cleveland because they don't want them on their roster. Yet they want one of the best, most affordable players in MLB in return. It gets a little old, mostly because it's not going to happen and I find value in this sight when we try to accommodate both sides like reality suggests we should. All 3 of Groshans, Martinez, and Hoglund are very good prospects, but none of the 3 are ready to contribute just yet. Ask yourself, if you were running a MLB team that was looking to compete and add to your lineup because that's where the needs are, would you make this trade? I expect Groshans and Martinez to end up at 3B so theoretically one could replace Ramirez when ready, but we have Arias and they haven't totally given up on Jones at 3B either even though I would have. We have Noel fast approaching too. So basically I'm saying that while they are excellent prospects, Groshans and Martinez are a bit redundant in Cleveland's system unless they convert to the OF. Hogland fits the profile that Cleveland covets. Decent repertoire that they could coach up, but have you seen the upper level pitching depth Cleveland has. If you're interested look at the age, performance, and level than any of Battenfield, Pilkington, LT Allen, Curry, and Myers. Add in the fact that they have the youngest SP staff in MLB with Cody Morris pretty much ready. So in the end, if you cannot give Cleveland a good, ready corner OFer or C then you're probably not going to be dealing with Cleveland. That's the truth as I see it.
Ok, thanks! My initial responses to you and JMF were frustratingly lost in draft "in the internets" but I have a bit more time now (due to vacation) to fill the gap left from the standoff. If I understand you and JMF correctly, it seems that Cleveland is still looking to contend right now (perhaps related both to the ownership shuffle and org ethos?) and Ramirez is key in that respect so given Cleveland financials will need to be an overpay since Cleveland knows Ramirez and cannot take low payoff risks. Maybe Groshans or Martinez would be a fit IF Cleveland thinks they are the real-deal, but no Kirk due his limitations behind the plate (until he can demonstrate he can handle more than one two-pitch Cy Young winner, who is not on the Guardians roster). I believe that the Blue Jays think that Gurriel Jr is going to get more consistent in his hot hitting streaks which can be really impressive (he hit better than Semien and just a bit worse than Vladdy for a while at the end of the season) so see him as undervalued right now but given his defensive challenges I could see you wanting to avoid him and Hernandez is probably too expensive without salary relief. The Jays don't have young cost-controlled above-average OF talent in the high minors but that is what Cleveland is looking for? If so the only way this gets done may be a trade with a 3rd team. The Guardians have lots of pitching but might go for Hoglund as an add in if the other pieces fit (who can have enough pitching?). So it is not likely to happen because it would probably be Gabriel Moreno + EITHER Hernandez (and salary relief) or assets to a 3rd team to pitch in some young cost-controlled OF talent. I am not sure the Jays will give up those pieces. Does that sound about right?
First, I don't see Cleveland trading him as they plan to compete in 2022. Every recent trade that the Guardians have made has provided help for the current team in positions of need at the time and help for the future. As far as the trade package, the strength of the strong Cleveland farm system (ranked 5th best by Fangraphs) is middle infielders and starting pitching. Cleveland would not need both Martinez and Groshans to add to that log jam. One of them possibly ok for future 3B needs. Catching is a need, but I don't see Kirk, despite reports, being a target of the Guardians due to his DH profile and lack of defensive skills behind the plate which is a must for Cleveland catchers. I would think that Cleveland would insist on Moreno in any trade discussions that the two teams have. Cleveland's biggest need is outfield help on the major league level and in the farm system. At the trade deadline, it was reported that Cleveland was not interested in trading Jose Ramirez unless overwhelmed. I don't see that viewpoint changing now. Cleveland is well known for establishing their price and sticking too that price. As I said earlier, I don't see the Guardians trading him as they have strong controllable starting pitching & closer with a very strong farm system. I hope that answers your question.
Thanks JMF for your input (and BigBats), please see the response above, did I understand what you were saying?
Fangraphs data on Gurriel and Hernandez: Full season: https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2021&month=0&season1=2021&ind=0&team=14&rost=&age=&filter=&players=&startdate=&enddate= 2nd Half: https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=50&type=8&season=2021&month=31&season1=2021&ind=0&team=14&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2021-01-01&enddate=2021-12-31
NEWSLETTER? SURE, SIGN ME UP!
Please explain, my thinking is that Cleveland needs cost controlled future assets. I welcome suggestions of areas of need for Cleveland rather than just a straight no if possible.