Blue Jays & Guardians & Mets
Submitted by: LetsGoMetsLGM
Blue Jays
| Name | Age | Level | P1 | P2 | Availability | Years | AFV | Salary | Surplus | Low | Median | High |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Jeff McNeil | 29 | Majors | 2B | OF | Low | 3 | 29.1 | 14 | 15.1 | 12.1 | 15.1 | 18.1 |
| Brandon Nimmo | 28 | Majors | OF | Low | 1 | 30.7 | 6 | 24.7 | 19.8 | 24.7 | 29.6 | |
| Nick Sandlin | 24 | Majors | RHRP | Low | 6 | 14.9 | 7.3 | 7.6 | 6.1 | 7.6 | 9.1 |
Total Value:
47.4
Guardians
| Name | Age | Level | P1 | P2 | Availability | Years | AFV | Salary | Surplus | Low | Median | High |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Gunnar Hoglund | Minors | RHP | 9.3 | 7.4 | 9.3 | 11.2 | ||||||
| Alejandro Kirk | 22 | Majors | C | DH | Low | 5 | 22.3 | 6.5 | 15.8 | 12.7 | 15.8 | 19 |
| Orelvis Martinez | Minors | SS | 30.4 | 24.3 | 30.4 | 36.5 | ||||||
| Ronny Mauricio | Minors | SS | 26.3 | 21 | 26.3 | 31.6 |
Total Value:
81.8
Mets
| Name | Age | Level | P1 | P2 | Availability | Years | AFV | Salary | Surplus | Low | Median | High |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Anthony Gose | 30 | Majors | LHRP | Low | 4 | 1.5 | 1 | 0.5 | 0.3 | 0.5 | 0.7 | |
| Randal Grichuk | 29 | Majors | OF | Medium | 2 | 6.5 | 18.7 | -12.2 | -14.6 | -12.2 | -9.8 | |
| Tim Mayza | 29 | Majors | LHRP | Medium | 4 | 9.6 | 6 | 3.6 | 2.9 | 3.6 | 4.3 | |
| Jose Ramirez | 28 | Majors | 3B | 2B | Medium | 2 | 97.7 | 24 | 73.7 | 58.9 | 73.7 | 88.4 |
| Trevor Richards | 28 | Majors | RHRP | Medium | 3 | 1.5 | 1.1 | 0.4 | 0.2 | 0.4 | 0.6 |
Total Value:
66
Comments
12Thanks everyone for the constructive criticism. I will use it in the future when building trades for both the Blue Jays and Guardians.
Mets get Ramirez, and their budget is gone. The relievers represent depth, and Grichuk is the backup outfielder needed. Ironically, the Mets will still need to sign a free agent outfielder or two with this deal, AND still look for an SP3. That’s why it probably won’t happen. The Blue Jays get 2 key pieces in McNeil and Nimmo, as well as a productive reliever in Sandlin. So, upgrade at 2B, CF OBP machine at the top of the order, and bullpen upgrade. The Guardians are in a full rebuild, but can hopefully rebound quickly in two years time with Mauricio and Martinez as the middle infield, with Kirk behind the plate. Hoglund will take some more time to develop.
LGM, Cleveland did their rebuild on the run. Do you not remember the Kluber, Bauer, Clevinger trades? How about the Lindor and Carrasco trade? Yes, that was more about reducing payroll after the pandemic issues, but they still got a pretty good return. Cleveland is not 1-2 yrs away from their prospects maturing. Arias looks ready. Freeman looks ready. Jones is damn near ready and will see some time in Cleveland this season. Valera is not 2 yrs away and if he picks up where he left off then he could see time in Cleveland for the second half or sooner. There is Myers, Pilkington, Battenfield, and Morris who are all either ready or will be at some point this season. LT Allen isn't too far off as he might start the season in AAA. Palacios is ready. Kwan is ready. Lavastida will soon be ready. Rocchio is starting in AAA so he's not too far off. Tena is right behind him. Combine all those ready/near ready prospect, $50M or more to spend, the current pitching staff, and Jose Ramirez and you have the ingredients to a playoff contender for yrs and yrs. Bottomline, you are not well versed on Cleveland's organization.
If the Guardians are going to extend Ramirez, by all means, they should. He’s an amazing player, and if Cleveland is expected to compete next year, they should splash the cash and extend him. I’m not about prying away hometown players from teams. I hated the Lindor trade, both as a Mets fan and a baseball fan, but Lindor didn’t want to re-sign for the contract that was offered. Cleveland will get a much lower return if Ramirez doesn’t intend to stay. I haven’t seen any public comments from him about his intentions, have you? If he wants to stay, all of this is moot. I want to see Cleveland contend. If the deal doesn’t work because the Guardians are ramping up to compete next year, absolutely don’t trade Ramirez and shut down anyone who suggests otherwise. Don’t trade the relief arms. Think about bringing in a veteran this year and a veteran next year. I honestly didn’t think Cleveland was going to be able to re-sign him, similar to Lindor, in which case, Ramirez should be moved this year to try to get the most possible from him. Thank you for the constructive comments, and I will keep them in mind when making trade simulations with Cleveland in the future.
Yes, he's publicly stated that he wants to stay and his agent is notorious for making that happen. The key here is that Ramirez is nothing like Lindor. Jose is more under the radar and content with that while Lindor is all about the attention and getting every last dollar. Maybe a better way to put it is that the things that make Ramirez content are not the same things that make Lindor content. This doesn't mean that Ramirez is going to accept a $15M/yr deal. He'd be crazy to do that and I'd like to think that Cleveland has more respect and appreciation for him than that. I think he'll get a 4/100 deal with an option for a 5th yr. I don't think you were ever attempting to pry Ramirez away. At least I didn't take it that way. I do think that folks fail to realize how Cleveland has set themselves up financially. They have all their ducks in a row to make a couple of big splashes. I'm confident that extending Ramirez will be one of them. If by some chance talks fall through then he will be dealt by the break for a haul. So it's not the idea that Ramirez could be dealt, but the suggested returns that irk me. No team is getting that kind of player while disposing themselves of their unwanteds. You'll have to forgive my impatience when it comes to discussing Kirk. He is 5'8" and 265 lbs. He's a C in name only as he is terrible defensively and there is no way he could take a full MLB season in the condition he's currently in. For me, it's a bit deeper than that. What professional athlete allows themselves to go that badly? A question of make up and work ethic have to be considered. What pisses me off is that Blue Jay fans realize this and don't want him either. That's why he's included in just about every deal they post. Kirk is a DH and is valued here at 15.8 which I believe is disguised by the false pretense that he is a C. Cleveland has Reyes who is also a DH and his value is 12.4. I encourage you to look at each player and their performances and tell me which one you'd rather have. I don't know how to be more fair about it than that. I don't think discussing Ramirez trades is moot at all. The possibility is certainly there, but the sacrifice it would take to get him now exceeds what any rational GM is willing to give. I think it's obvious that 1 of 2 things prevented a trade with Toronto from happening. The Guardians are either not interested in trading Ramirez or the asking price exceeded Atkins comfort level.
For the Blue Jays, Springer was hurt so much last year that Grichuk had a ton of playing time, and he is best suited as a backup, not an everyday player. Nimmo allows the Blue Jays to have a top of the order major league starter at a low cost for 1 year, and then see what happens to possibly re-sign him this offseason. If the Blue Jays shuffle their infield, they can certainly make it work Espinal and Biggio, but if Biggio underperforms again and Espinal is more of a part-time player, then McNeil offers a ton of flexibility. He can play 2B, 3B, and corner outfielder. That is a lot of utility. Of course, if the Blue Jays like Espinal and Biggio, this is a non-starter, or perhaps they could use JD Davis from the Mets to play 3B instead. Everyone is looking for depth in the starting pitcher market, and this deal doesn’t really solve that for the Blue Jays. You’re right — a deal for a starter would also need to happen, and the Mets could probably use a similar deal.
NEWSLETTER? SURE, SIGN ME UP!
The Guardians are in anything other than "full rebuild". Who in the hell is in full rebuild with a pitching staff like that while having Ramirez and Reyes in the lineup. Throw in the fact that they already have a top 5 farm system and voila! You're incredibly misguided. What you should do when proposing trade ideas is make it beneficial for all the teams involved instead of just for the Mets. What the hell do the Blue Jays need Nimmo or McNeil for? Have you looked at their OFers? The only useful piece for them in this deal is Sandlin. Meanwhile you want to add 2 more SS to a system loaded with them, a fat ass who is listed as a C, but can't catch, and a decent SP prospect that would be buried in Cleveland's system flooded with good SP prospects. On top of that, their 5 SP are 26 or younger and controlled for 4 more years at the minimum. Great deal for the Mets, not so much for Toronto and Cleveland.
I’m really not just trying to make deals to benefit the Mets. The Blue Jays have holes at CF, 2B, and bullpen. This deal solves those holes, and at a reasonable rate. The Guardians aren’t competing with Ramirez in two years. Getting solid prospects that will be major league ready in 1-2 years is the way to go for them, so that all of the players come up at the same time, and can contribute. You can disagree about the players named and their relative worth, but if you have read any of my posts and trades, it isn’t just about the Mets, and I have provided reasons for all teams involved in the trade. All of them. I understand that trades involve multiple teams. All teams should benefit. If the Guardians are ready to compete now, trading a player that will not re-sign to make them competitive in 1-2 years isn’t stupid, it’s the right trade.
Your comment was likely downvoted because you show little to no understanding about the Cleveland Guardians. Big Bat was very correct when he mentioned that Cleveland has no need to go into a rebuild. Cleveland 's has a top 5 farm system that is absolutely loaded with middle infielders. Why is God's earth would they trade for two more when they have other needs? Kirk is a DH not the defensive catcher that the Guardians value. There is absolutely nothing here that would motivate the Guardians to trade Ramirez and destroy their bullpen.
No idea how anyone downvoted my comment when I responded to all points, respectfully, and upvoted the other response. Thanks.
If Cleveland isn’t going into a rebuild, what are they doing? They are still 1-2 years away from their prospects maturing, at which point in time Ramirez is gone. So, if you are saying that their prospect depth is in the middle infield, which there are a number of options there on Roster Resources. Arias is projected to be closest, but there is absolutely zero harm in stockpiling to have pieces to move later when Ramirez is gone. Valera is the one OF prospect, and he’s not ready for 2 years. Maybe the Guardians could use more quality outfield prospects, but I’ve seen Valera’s name mentioned in trade rumors more than the other Cleveland prospects (Freeman is the other that pops up). So, Cleveland isn’t competing this year, and is planning on competing next year. If the plan is to hand 3B to Nolan Jones, what does it hurt to have more quality, major league ready talent to move to acquire the final pieces the team needs. There is no downside to having Ramirez move now, have close to major league ready players in 1-2 years, and then start making moves. Full rebuild is too strong, but competing this year is too strong as well. I think the Guardians could go for it now, but I have no idea if that is the plan.
Let me start by saying I didn't downvote your comment. I find it chickenshit when folks do that and don't offer an explanation. I'll try to keep my response organized. Up front, I'm not so sure Toronto needs a 2B. They have Biggio who was forced into the OF when Semien was there. They also have Espinal who I'm a big fan of. I think he'll have a fantastic career even if unspectacular. They also have Smith who had a good showing last season. Secondly, they signed George Springer to a large contract to play CF and he's a good one so I wouldn't call that a need either. What makes you think that the Guardians aren't competing with Ramirez in 2 yrs? I can tell you with confidence that he is likely extended when the lockout is over. Their payroll is just under $30M right now and it has been publicly stated that it will increase. The question is will that increase be around $80M or more? Do you realize how much they offered Lindor? It was a franchise record, but not as much as the Mets gave him. Word has it was around $200M. That's why he wasn't dealt the year before. Well, that and they were trying to compete. Toronto could use a BP arm, but most teams fall into that category. What Toronto needs is a SP and to less an extent a 3B upgrade so that they don't have to rely on both Espinal and/or Smith. Cleveland can help the Blue Jays in the SP department without killing their own chances of competing, but if they trade Ramirez then their chances are seriously reduced. Especially in a deal like the one you proposed here that is nothing but unproven prospects and a lard ass DH. Objectively speaking, Toronto would be better off trying to get one of Cleveland's SP and then making a seperate deal with Oakland for Chapman.